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Degree Requirement
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Degree Requirement
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It's easy to see that a Law degree should be required to practice law or work in an organization as general counsel. It's easy to understand that a Civil Engineer degree should be required for positio
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Degree Requirement
posted at 6/9/2009 8:23 AM EDT
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Posts: 29
First: 6/9/2009 Last: 4/26/2011 |
It's easy to see that a Law degree should be required to practice law or work in an organization as general counsel. It's easy to understand that a Civil Engineer degree should be required for positions requiring an engineer's technical expertise. A degree requirement may also be necessary for business, accounting, or any similar technical position. However, it's not easy to understand how, for some positions in an organization, career experience as a substitution for a degree is eliminated.
Do any of you encourage your organizations to substitute experience for a degree? Generally, competition is the factor that makes it necessary to require a degree. What feedback can you provide to employees who have worked to position themselves for a promotion, only for them to find that, under a restructuring effort, without a degree, the promotion can't happen? TCSquared |
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Degree Requirement
posted at 6/9/2009 1:14 PM EDT
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Posts: 464
First: 6/30/2004 Last: 11/22/2010 |
First, if they are serious about getting a particular position, it would be in their best interest to discuss that with the appropriate level of decision maker in the company. If the degree is required enough that the employee with experience only is not qualified, the employee should do enough research to know that. In other words, it should not be a surprise.
The desire to develop and advance can be identified in the evaluation process. When that happens, it is my belief that the supervisor should help identify the steps necessary to secure an interview for the position. If that requires education or certification, then the employee needs to make that happen. Bill Gates does not have a degree, but who would argue that he is not an exceptional business person. |
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Degree Requirement
posted at 6/10/2009 5:34 AM EDT
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Posts: 29
First: 6/9/2009 Last: 4/26/2011 |
MarcNV wrote:
"If the degree is required enough that the employee with experience only is not qualified, the employee should do enough research to know that. In other words, it should not be a surprise." I agree with you, in this situation however, the position was posted in the midst of a restructuring process. Moreover,the position mirrors a current/pre-restructuring position (Fleet Manager), except for the degree requirement, with no substitution. Basically, it is a surprise to all the employees who have worked as Fleet Managers for more than 10 years. My primary frustration is that it appears that we're trying to weed out long-term employees with valuable knowledge about our organization. It's like we're creating a self-imposed barrier for a particular group of employees. Thanks for your insight, TCSquared |
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Degree Requirement
posted at 6/10/2009 6:16 AM EDT
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Posts: 2442
First: 2/12/2000 Last: 9/14/2011 |
Companies cannot/should use a degree requirement when one really does not exist. Having never been a fleet manager I can not speak to all the job requirements but in today's complex business and finance world the education needs may be much higher than they were 10 years ago. Can all this knowledge be learned on the job? Some may say yes some may say no.
As many of you know, HR has been the same way. For years we have same that expereince can be substituted for a degree. And while this may still be true it is a hard sell. |
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Degree Requirement
posted at 6/10/2009 6:35 AM EDT
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Posts: 2146
First: 2/15/2006 Last: 9/14/2011 |
Always an interesting discussion -- here's my take/brainstorming on the issue:
I think there will always be an argument regarding education vs experience. Obviously the best candidate has both. And some positions require more education and less experience while others require more experience and less education. It is a hard sell however to state that there is a new requirement for a job that has never been there before and all the current employees have been performing to the employer's satisfaction without the education/degree. And to demote/terminate those already there. Many companies will grandfather those in the position and just then only hire with the new qualifications rather than terminate the employment relationship with those with experience. Because they still need the experience and because they understand that there could be lawsuits for discrimination (age, etc) Unfortunately though, experience (with or without education) usually means higher salaries because of compounding pay raises over the years. It is often cheaper for an employer to higher a new employee who has education but less experience. But this occurs too which an older employee who has education and experience, so I am not sure it is a huge factor as much as the compensation itself. That said, I often tell those with experience but without the education that it is never bad to increase your education. There are plenty of online courses/certifications/degrees these days where an employee can take advantage of more accessible education. |
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Degree Requirement
posted at 6/10/2009 7:27 AM EDT
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Posts: 464
First: 6/30/2004 Last: 11/22/2010 |
Another thought that strikes me - perhaps senior managemement has seen a need for the increases knowledge because they want some growth, improved efficiency, a new "just in time" initiative or the like. They may not think that current staff has the capability to take them where they want to go? |
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Degree Requirement
posted at 6/10/2009 7:52 AM EDT
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Posts: 1103
First: 3/16/2007 Last: 8/19/2011 |
Random but connected thoughts;
Business has to understand the value of a college degree and how to apply that value. Simply believing that if one has a degree they are somehow fully prepared to enter the workplace is inherently wrong and equally risky. Business has bought into the myth sold by educational institutions to boost enrollment and revenues. But the degree is important and does have value; 1) It shows dedication and resolve to complete something; tangible proof that an individual established a goal and completed it. 2. It shows a beginning point that is measurable. The individual acquired a set of skills and experiences, beyond the workplace, and is not ready to be coached and mentored into applying those. 3. It says, I have prepared, I am now ready to add value and be competitive. In other words it is an appropriate ticket to enter the competition. At the professional level I find most arguments supporting experience over a degree to come from those not possessing a degree. I invite them to point one above. Resolve and execution are important in business, this demonstrates completion of both. At a vocational or technical level it shouldn't matter what the educational level is. |
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Degree Requirement
posted at 6/10/2009 8:58 AM EDT
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Posts: 2146
First: 2/15/2006 Last: 9/14/2011 |
To carry on HRPro's thought, I have always thought the largest benefit of a college degree (and often any degree since most degrees have to take variety of courses in and out of the major) was the ability to learn to learn about something (1) you had never seen before or (2) weren't absolutely interested in but it forced you to do so.
Now there are some without degrees who can do this because they are self-learners and self-motivated. Such as Bill Gates....But I would suggest to that a large % of the population that it takes an advanced learning degree to learn this. How many of us in our careers had to take on something brand new with little to no training/knowledge/skillset? Maybe I am in the minority, but it seems to happen to me all the time *Ü*. Does my BA in Applied Mathematical Sciences directly apply to most of it? Does my husband's BA and MA in History help him in his Project Manager of IT Systems job? Not directly, but both of us know how to get through and learn what we need to know to accomplish our tasks. And yes, I usually find it is those with experience and no degree that tend to make the argument that a degree is not needed. I liken it to people before they have children -- you just don't really understand it until you are there. |
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Degree Requirement
posted at 6/10/2009 10:49 AM EDT
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Posts: 29
First: 6/9/2009 Last: 4/26/2011 |
HRPro writes: "At the professional level I find most arguments supporting experience over a degree to come from those not possessing a degree. I invite them to point one above. Resolve and execution are important in business, this demonstrates completion of both."
Point taken, but I thought we were discussing experience or a degree, not one over the other. More inclusive. On the other hand, I challenge management to do what it takes to "screen out" through the use of the entire selection process. I think we short our talent when we shorten the process by setting a degree requirement to effectively do the "screening." It could be as MarcNV said, [that] 'management has seen a need for increased knowledge or growth, or improved efficiency..., with that kind of mindset, Bill Gates types would never make the interview. Anyway, all the years I've worked in HR, I continue finding a need to argue for and against degree requirements. That is, pro in areas where it's clear that a degree is needed. Con in areas where a degree is required only to limit the number of applications or resumes. Besides, you mean to say that a person who has worked their way up without a degree doesn't know dedication and resolve, has not acquired a set of skills beyond the workplace, is not prepared or can't add value, has not been coached and mentored to get where they are? Please, ya'll, the Bill Gates analogy is the bootstrap analogy. Take a look at Malcolm Gladwell's 'Outliers, The Story of Success.' One of the points in this book is that hard work or earning a degree counts, but somebody has to give you an opportunity. It's what you do with the opportunity that makes the difference. My point, a degree can't guarantee success, but we sure place the weight on having one, and most of the times it aint necessarily so. Great Conversation! TCSquare |
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Degree Requirement
posted at 6/10/2009 11:46 AM EDT
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Posts: 464
First: 6/30/2004 Last: 11/22/2010 |
Both of you have hit on one of the underpinnings that a degree represents, and it's the demonstration of the ability to learn. Now it does not necessarily demonstrate a life-long commitment to learning, but it does symbolize the ability to make and sustain a long learning path. Often that is what an employer is looking for. Someone may not know all the answers, but knows how to find them, how to research, how to collate and report - all things that are a must to most advanced degrees.
Now we might go on to opine that today's undergraduate degree is the equivalent of the high school degree of 20 years ago, and that those holding that fresh undergraduate degree have not really demonstrated the same commitment that it used to mean. I am not sure I buy into the non-equivalent commitment, but I do think todays job market has more and more degreed folks working in positions that do not require one. |
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