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References for employment seem like a thing of the past. I has become almost impossible to get any kind of reference form returned, and the ones that are do no more than confirm the dates of employmen
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references
posted at 10/22/2009 3:56 AM EDT
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Posts: 323
First: 6/15/1999 Last: 9/9/2011 |
References for employment seem like a thing of the past. I has become almost impossible to get any kind of reference form returned, and the ones that are do no more than confirm the dates of employment. Now, I'm complaining when we have a policy ourselves that we give only position, dates, rate of pay - and then only with a signed release.
Any suggestions on how I can improve this piece of my job (both directions)? Any insights into the pitfalls/liabilities? A really good reference form? Are phone calls better? Always appreciative - sbnonprof |
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posted at 10/22/2009 4:18 AM EDT
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Posts: 1771
First: 10/24/2002 Last: 9/14/2011 |
I don't send out reference forms and I ignore reference letters. I always always always phone former employers and related contacts - I get 'way more and better information that way. And I never never never hire anyone without having personally received at least three (and preferably four or five) positive phone references.
If one of the references I've called steadfastly refuses to provide me with any more than a "name, rank and serial number" reference, I take that as being a bad reference...because it's obvious to me that this person can't think of anything good to say about his/her former employee. Conversely, I only give "name, rank and serial number" references when I'm trying to subtly convey to the prospective employer that this former employee of mine might not be such a good hire. If that's what you're trying to do by providing this type of reference on your former employees, then fine. If, however, you're actually hoping the former employee will get this job, you might want to step up to the plate and say something nice about him/her. As far as I know, nobody's ever gotten sued for saying nice things about someone. Finally, while providing negative references about your former employees certainly increases your risk of lawsuits from said former employees, not saying truthful negative things about former employees can increase your risk of lawsuits from other employers. If you fire someone for theft and someone else hires him because you neglected to mention the theft in a reference check, and he steals again, guess who the new employer's gonna go after? |
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posted at 10/22/2009 5:19 AM EDT
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Posts: 323
First: 6/15/1999 Last: 9/9/2011 |
I also give little weight to "letters of recommendation." And, there is something to the only somewhat veiled practice of only responding to reference requests if you have something positive to say - leaving the non response to imply a less than favorable reference.However, I may also be dealing with the TYPE of former employer either being huge (Wal-mart, casinos, ship yards) or very small (no one to process reference requests). As is typical - I think - our turnover is in our lower paid positions and those lower paid positions only attract folks coming from other lower paid positions. My experience has been that the less "professional" the previous position, the less likely I will get a reference response.
I do take to heart your suggestion of using the phone more. I am not really sure when I will have the time to make all those calls, but............do you have some magic questions that get you the information you want? At what point in the process do you check references - before or after an interview? |
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posted at 10/22/2009 6:00 AM EDT
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Posts: 2146
First: 2/15/2006 Last: 9/14/2011 |
Most larger, professional companies will not give out any information over the phone at all due to very conservative company policies, so I think you are doing potential hires a disservice to assume a negative for the policies of their former employers -- whether that is a simple reference or none at all. As a matter of fact, none of our managers are allowed to give out any references...all must flow through HR. And HR doesn't personally know all of the employees, only what information has been passed up the chain. So I would be much more likely to give a bad reference than a good one -- normal employees with no problems would get a standard reference (dates, title, salary, yes to rehire, etc).
Actually I am surprised you could find more than 1 or 2 willing to give a true reference vs name/rank/serial number type reference. We require a written request that includes a signature of the former employee. But it has been rare lately to get any requests at all. |
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posted at 10/22/2009 6:13 AM EDT
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Posts: 155
First: 8/24/2009 Last: 2/9/2010 |
While I believe good due diligence in vetting a candidate for a position is important I think the demise of references in the stereotypical sense is visible on the horizon. In fact, I am aware of many employers who simply do not use them. HR has contributed significantly to this.
If you ask a candidate for the names of 3,4,5 or what ever references the odds are significant that when they give them to you each has been coached or already agrees to giving a positive reference. An astute reference checker may ask one of these references if they know of anyone else who could vouch for the candidate. They may actually get a name and contact information. Whether or not the reference checker is further successful in this endeavor is literally the luck of the draw. Then their is always the risk of the candidate discovering that people they have not authorized to give references have in fact done so opening yet another avenue of concern for recruiters. I am aware of many companies moving to an 800 number type service for references. Here, you will get basic name rank and serial number information; nothing more. The companies like this because it frees up their staff from the chronic interruptions of external people asking for information on employees or former employees. The company will not respond to any other requests. I have established this type of operation for 4 separate employers over my career. I was more concerned with the value added to my employer than I was ensuring another employer had a good candidate who used to work for my company. Further, I know of 3 Fortune 500 organizations that not only refuse to give references outside of name rank and serial number but also severely discipline any incumbent employees who give references. Much of this came from risk averse HR people who advised the leadership of their organizations that giving references that could be construed as negative could result in adverse legal action. In my less than humble opinion, reference checking has become nothing more than a valueless exercise that makes somebody feel good about their efforts at recruiting and not about getting the best possible person into a position. Their are a myriad of ways to determine the suitability of a candidate for a position beyond reference checking. Combining these methods into the hiring process and looking at the whole person instead of which one can give you the best names for a telephone reference check will ensure a much better chance of success. |
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posted at 10/22/2009 6:14 AM EDT
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Posts: 323
First: 6/15/1999 Last: 9/9/2011 |
We have a similar policy - reference requests must be directed to HR...actually, most are directed to payroll where they can more easily verify dates and wages. So, it all comes down to asking others for information WE won't provide. I think the only hope is to loosen our own policy and find questions that allow the reference to feel more comfortable providing a tad bit more than name, rank, etc. (I'm googling for that now.) |
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posted at 10/22/2009 6:31 AM EDT
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Posts: 323
First: 6/15/1999 Last: 9/9/2011 |
regarding my last post - this was in response to the one before HRPro.
Overall,I feel depressed and discouraged. (here's where I typed a long lament about nutty employees and nuttier supervisors - then thought better of it) Let me start dialing these numbers - at least I can document that I tried. |
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posted at 10/22/2009 6:59 AM EDT
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Posts: 1771
First: 10/24/2002 Last: 9/14/2011 |
I start the reference-checking process after I've decided I want to hire a certain candidate and before I offer a job (even verbally) to that candidate. What I'm looking for is confirmation that what the candidate has told me is true, that what's on his/her resume is true, and that my positive reaction to him/her is supported by people who have worked with him/her.
When I'm feeling frustrated in a phone conversation with a we-do-name-rank-and-serial-number-references-only organization, I say "I'm looking for some positive feedback on this person. The fact that you're not giving me any positive feedback, or at least giving me the name of someone else who can do this, tells me that you have absolutely nothing positive to say about this person. Am I correct in thinking this? Because if I am, I'm definitely not hiring this person." That usually gets 'em talking. And I agree, many organizations do require a signed release before they'll provide any information about a former employee. That's fine with me because guess what? I require one too. When I'm asked for a signed release I just pass the request on to the candidate - if he/she really wants the job, he/she will get and sign that release. If he/she doesn't get/sign the release, I don't hire him/her. While this level of reference-checking certainly is time-consuming it's nothing compared to the wasted time and costs associated with making bad hires...like lost productivity, poor morale, confidentiality breaches, increased turnover, lawsuits - even my own job! (In other words, if I ever get fired, it sure won't be due to making bad hires resulting from inadequate/nonexistent reference checks!) |
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posted at 10/22/2009 7:03 AM EDT
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Posts: 323
First: 6/15/1999 Last: 9/9/2011 |
Thanks. We are a non profit and we are monitored by various funding and licensing entities; therefore, I need the documentation of following procedures and systems. It is more than just trying to avoid bad hiring choices. |
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