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Boss Behavior
Discuss employment-law issues such as family leave, overtime, disabilities law, harassment, immigration and termination.
I had a former employee call me about the boss that took my place. She said that he is harassing her terribly & she is now out on mental stress leave because of it. She told me that he pulled her
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Forums » Topic Forums » Legal Forum » Boss Behavior
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Boss Behavior
posted at 11/20/2010 1:49 PM EST
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Posts: 1103
First: 3/16/2007 Last: 8/19/2011 |
"If you make determinations - as you appear to be doing - on the basis of hearsay, you are taking a big risk. I don't see how you can possibly come to the conclusion based solely on the information provided by a third party that there is "no evidence in the OP's submission to support a bullying accusation." "
I am making the statement because the OP has not offered any evidence beyond hearsay. You weren't there, the OP wasn't there. We have a heavily filtered statement from an unknown third party. Consequently there has been no evidence presented. The greater risk, in this instance, is to suggest, imply, state or otherwise indicate that a problem exists. That is not jumping to a conclusion (nice tactic of deflecting the issue though). That is making a factual statement. Where is the evidence? We don't have any nor does the OP. What is the evidence? Again - nonexistent. My boss was mean to mean is not bullying. It may not even be a violation of company policy or even good management practice. Again, no evidence exists. To suggest something might be there is both irresponsible and unprofessional. But what ever floats your boat as they say. This is a non-issue for the OP and it is not the OP's organization anymore. This former direct report of the OP needs to address this issue internally; if not with her boss then her bosses boss (or HR Representative) . If we want to really help the OP here our response is simple. "This isn't your problem and it is unprofessional and inappropriate for you to get involved. Refer your former employee to their organizational chain of command." However, if you are asking if there is evidence of bullying here, there is not. If you are asking if a CBA has been violated go read my Weingarten response again. Suggesting anything else is entering the realm of fabricating a need and a solution, aka, selling snake oil. Help gives an appropriate solution; "empathizing" with this situation is similar to enabling bad behavior. Enabling reinforces bad behavior. |
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Boss Behavior
posted at 11/20/2010 2:01 PM EST
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Posts: 1103
First: 3/16/2007 Last: 8/19/2011 |
I will try and be kind...
"This particular case has a number of red flags for me in terms of potential liability for the employer. Even based on the little information provided, this case is one a plaintiff's attorney might look at closely. Why? Because there are measurable damages - and damages that may increase." OMG HR professionals have been fighting this image for years. It is called the Chicken Little complex. Legal fees are a cost of doing business for corporations. Frivolous lawsuits are a source of potential income for plaintiffs attorneys; "If they settle, even for nuisance value, I get something." The problem isn't managers. The problem is unscrupulous attorneys, consultants who embellish reality and a sub culture that says if I sue I win regardless. In 30+ years I have never lost a lawsuit. I've settled several for "nuisance value." I have never retained a chicken little - they don't win lawsuits either. To even suggest that conflict counseling/management and/or anti-bully training will eliminate or reduce these natural business costs is the height of egotism. They are a very small part of a larger curriculum and cannot deliver those results alone. I am certain that foolish and uninformed organizations will snap up that type of service with the aforementioned claim too. Thomas Tussers proverb comes to mind |
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Boss Behavior
posted at 11/20/2010 2:30 PM EST
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Posts: 32
First: 11/16/2010 Last: 1/3/2011 |
Hi, HRPro -
I'm sorry that I'm making it difficult for you to be kind. Based on the information we have, there is no solid evidence whether this situation involves "bullying" or not. Yet, relying solely on hearsay, you have determined that there is no evidence of bullying. Huh? I suppose that's because, despite volumes of research and factual evidence indicating the existence of abuse ("bullying")in the workplace globally, you have ultimately determined workplace abuse just doesn't exist - that it's just lazy employees looking for an excuse not to be a team player and seeking a possible windfall through litigation. Wow. Nuisance claims, frivolous lawsuits...from the perspective of a plaintiff's firm, these are huge wastes of time, money - not to mention the risk of lost credibility and respect within the legal field and the world at large. Such cases are the exception, not the rule. If the way you've been handling things is working - wonderful. I wish you well. Debra |
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Boss Behavior
posted at 11/22/2010 4:49 AM EST
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Posts: 6
First: 11/18/2010 Last: 11/24/2010 |
Rrupert: I can see how from any perspective that babysitting someone who is feeling persecuted can be annoying and not what HR or anyoneâs role should be in an organization. I get that⦠but please understand that when a manager or co-worker is being abusive to another employee that employeeâs work product suffers. AND so does everyone elseâs. Thereâs lots and lots of research that supports the notion that even when witnesses donât feel like they are bullied or mistreated, just witnessing it is enough to drive their work product and work quality down as well. They also lose loyalty to management because they see their co-worker being mistreated and nothing being done about it. So bullying, mistreatment, whatever you want to call it, is hurting the bottom line in that itâs keeping everyone from meeting their goals effectively and productively. Therefore addressing the issue effectively will allow you to âget back to the business of running the companyâ
And Iâm with Debra on this one rrupert, why are you so willing to assume the employee, who has worked there for longer than the boss, is the issue? You said you would not automatically assume it was the bossâs issue but rather the employee who canât handle change? Agreed that anytime change comes in it must be handled with a little TLC â everyone needs to know whatâs expected of them, but Iâm not sure itâs the change of boss thatâs the problem for the employee but the bossâs lack of management skills. Both of us are making assumptions based on what little information we have, but if you could elaborate on why youâd âtake the bossâs sideâ that would be helpful. I agree with you whole-heartedly, HRPro, a consultant should not be brought in to address the issue of a person calling others âboys and girlsâ. If thatâs the only problem then certainly it can be addressed internally easily enough. So (to push for an answer to the question about how you would handle an issue of an employee complaining about how he is being treated by his boss when you know itâs not a performance management issue) what about when behaviors are mixed with other subjective behaviors, such as constant yelling and berating, continuously being asked when you are quitting even when youâre not looking for another job, and manipulating work responsibilities by giving impossible deadlines, and taking away core responsibilities without reason and despite the fact that the employee continues to show he is a good employee? I also understand the chicken little response. But what about all of the other costs of business an abusive manager creates⦠again, work quality goes down, and absenteeism and presenteeism goes up along with workerâs comp claims, etc⦠Admittedly this can be hard to quantify, but thatâs one of the exercises I would run through with a potential client to see if my services will create an ROI for them. So although I understand your point HRPro, youâre disregarding all of the other costs that go into abusive work environments. |
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Boss Behavior
posted at 11/22/2010 4:59 AM EST
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Posts: 544
First: 9/27/2004 Last: 9/13/2011 |
I don't know HRPro, if the employee described by the OP had to see a physician due to the stress that, to me, is a problem.
I think if it's HR's role to represent the organization's interests - and I will always agree that it is because if the organization isn't viable, nobody wins! - if it's HR's role to represent the organization, than the repercussions of poor leadership behaviors are a concern. I understand that we don't want to hold hands and sing Kumbyah, that's insulting, but we don't get anywhere when we don't acknowledge the human factor and the truth is that human beings have emotional needs and that it matters how we treat each other and it always will. I think there is a business need to address workplace conflict. |
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Boss Behavior
posted at 11/22/2010 7:03 AM EST
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Posts: 562
First: 11/12/2009 Last: 9/14/2011 |
I'm going to come down on the side of HRPro here. I've been in HR for over 30 years and have yet to see an example of "bullying" in the workplace. I've never had an instance of someone complaining about it.
I was in HR when the diversity fad developed, and suddenly every fringe consultant was an expert in diversity and offering their services to help implement diversity programs. They were agressive - if you didn't have a diversity program, then somehow your company was uncaring, insensitive, even Neanderthal it your approach to business. Diversity programs have yet to produce any measurable benefit, yet business spent huge amounts of money on it. So it goes with HR fads - it seems like HR is plagued with them every 5 years or so. Some get a lot of publicity like diversity, others don't. All fade into oblivion, some mercifully sooner rather than later. So when I hear about schoolyard bullying and all the bad consequences, then hear from consultants playing up bullying as being a huge workplace issue I'm skeptical. Does it happen? I'm sure it does. Does it happen often enough to make me want to address it on anything other than a case by case basis (usually involving terminating the perpetrator), no. And I don't need a mediator or consultant to help me with that. Sorry if I've misinterpreted where you're coming from, HRPro. |
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Boss Behavior
posted at 11/22/2010 7:48 AM EST
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Posts: 2146
First: 2/15/2006 Last: 9/14/2011 |
You ask why I would side with the boss/manager?
I don't know many companies that choose to put inexperienced, uneducated, untrained people into management positions, but I know plenty of employees who feel like THEY should have been promoted OR that THEY know more than the new boss or that their way is the only way to do something. I am sure it happens, but like I said before I am not sure at this point that a complaint up the ladder would be a good move. Because the OP would be complaining to those that made the decision in the first place! This often comes across in their attitudes (which is what the OP posted this lady was being disciplined/counseled for). From my viewpoint, prior history is the main reason that when a new boss comes in, many times he wants to bring his people with him. They know him and he knows them. I have seen more issues with the underlings not being able to handle the change than the manager. That may just be my personal viewpoint, but it has been evidenced over and over to me. And again it sounds like the old boss and this employee had a relationship that worked for them. The employee could come in late - no problem. The employee could break the mandatory union break policy -- no problem. Both of which I could totally understand how a new boss would be unwilling to let continue. I am sure the employee thinks 'well she let me do it, so why is it a problem? And it's not MY problem but my new boss's problem' And that becomes an attitude problem -- the employee knows better than the new manager. This honestly may reflect back more on the old manager/boss than the new one. It's harder on a new boss when the old one hasn't held strict to policies, became too friendly, etc. And yes, I have spent the last two years being that "new boss". It is NOT easy to work with employees who do NOT want to change. Because before it was easy and lacksadasical and now we want them to be productive for the wages we pay. And honestly it gets back to my thoughts on "stress leave due to work related issues". Most workers compensation laws in most states don't even recognize it as a payable situation. The cause is basically unprovable...is it the employee's personality, history, background or is it truly that the employer needs to correct issues? I sure there is some of both....but in my 20+ years in HR, I find it is weighted more towards the employee's issues than the employers. So yes, it is my instinct to counsel the employee on how to deal with the change than to counsel the manager. Unless there is some direct evidence that it is the manager's issue. |
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Boss Behavior
posted at 11/22/2010 8:09 AM EST
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Posts: 32
First: 11/16/2010 Last: 1/3/2011 |
Hi, Everyone -
Thanks to everyone who's participated in this discussion. I entered this forum because I happened to see the topic (the perception of workplace abuse) in the e-mail newsletter. I've spent most of my life studying conflict from both a hands-on level as well as an academic, theoretical level. I've always been intrigued as to why we often approach conflict in ways that don't align with our best interests - either individually or as groups. The same patterns usually emerge - whether we're looking at conflict between two persons or two nations. It's unsettling that we continue to adhere to this pattern generation after generation, despite the enormous cost and destruction - from broken relationships to lost lives. For some reason, I have difficulty accepting that the destructive ways we often approach and attempt to handle conflict are "just the ways things are" - that these are simply costs of living. I've observed and participated in situations where conflict and disputes are handled in ways that are productive: from cases that are on a path toward litigation or are in litigation to situations involving neighbor-to-neighbor, organizational and public policy issues. By productive, I don't necessarily mean that everything turns out rainbows, puppies and unicorns. By productive I am talking about coming to terms with differences in ways that help us move forward without resorting to destructive (including self-destructive) reactions. I would never expect everyone to agree with my perspective. If you ever find that your approach to a difficult situation isn't working, there are those of us out here who may be able to help you. Thank you again. I have learned so much through this process. Take care. Debra |
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Boss Behavior
posted at 11/22/2010 9:18 AM EST
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Posts: 544
First: 9/27/2004 Last: 9/13/2011 |
It may well be more about the employee's interpersonal skills than the manager's, but knowing that is part of being a leader and knowing how to respond to thier interpersonal needs is what makes great leaders great.
We've had this debate before so I know where you all stand and why, but it isn't an accident that so much organizational research is centered on relational topics. It matters how people are treated by their bosses. It doesn't just matter to them, it matters to everyone watching. There are some very powerful norms that play out, we may as well understand how they work and leverage them to the organization's advantage. What are we arguing about exactly? |
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Boss Behavior
posted at 11/22/2010 10:21 AM EST
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Posts: 32
First: 11/16/2010 Last: 1/3/2011 |
Thank you, deltac.
This is about leadership. And, the ongoing work in this area (organizational relations) is not an accident. It came about because sufficient numbers of persons and organizations were recognizing the destructive impact of conflictual situations that could have been handled differently. This impact occurs on a human level as well as an organizational profitability level. And, this impact ultimately impacts how we function as a society. It does matter how people are treated by their bosses and HR. And, as you've noted, it doesn't just matter to them, it matters to everyone watching. As I've stated here previously - if you've stepped back and determined that what you're doing is working...well, then - there may be no need to look into alternate approaches. However, if you find it's not working, either overall or in a specific situation, well - there are those of us out here who've life's work centers around discovering approaches that can be more helpful in the short-term as well as the long-term. We didn't create this issue. The issue that came to us. The best to all of you. Debra |
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